Quote from: d_huntress on February 07, 2010, 08:20:14 PM

http://www.naturalnews.com/028109_Andrew_Wakefield_Jenny_McCarthy.html

That website is not even a little bit credible.

That's the same site where Livia gets her news about the conspiracy to depopulate the planet with H1N1.

Regardless of what you think of that website, or it's creator, did you read the study? That is what my post was about. Did you just dismiss everything the study might say, because of past posts linked to Livia? Come on!

Regardless of what you think of that website, or it's creator, did you read the study? That is what my post was about. Did you just dismiss everything the study might say, because of past posts linked to Livia? Come on!

I did skim the study - apparently they studied a chemical that is no longer found in most vaccines.

The CSC also read the study -

Scientific rejection of danger

Another committee report commissioned by the CDC by the Institute of Medicine follows up on the initial 2001 report. Since the 2001 report, the IOM committee took into account new data that had been published in the interim, including a number of large scale epidemiologic studies focusing on the relationship between thiomersal and autism in a number of countries including the US, Sweden, Denmark, and the UK.

The committee noted, in response to those who cite in vitro or animal models as evidence for the link between autism and thiomersal:

    "However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. However, these experiments do not provide evidence of a relationship between vaccines or thimerosal and autism. In the absence of experimental or human evidence that vaccination (either the MMR vaccine or the preservative thimerosal) affects metabolic, developmental, immune, or other physiological or molecular mechanisms that are causally related to the development of autism, the committee concludes that the hypotheses generated to date are theoretical only."[36]

The committee concludes:

    "Thus, based on this body of evidence, the committee concludes that the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism."[36] [bold in original]

This committee felt so strongly about this conclusion that they state:

    "The committee concludes that much more research must be conducted on autism. However, research should be directed towards those lines of inquiry most supported by the current state of knowledge. The vaccine hypotheses are not currently supported by the evidence."[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy
 

Thimerosal is not in MOST vaccines, but still some. Why they decided to use the HepB in this study, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, they have been looking in the right direction -- but just at the wrong ingredient(s). The amount of Aluminum included in the adjuvants in these vaccines has not been properly studied. The exact amounts of ingredients in the adjuvants are not revealed since they are protected trade secrets. Thimerosal is not the only hazardous ingredient used. If you read the insert that comes with the vaccine itself, it will clearly state that there is no scientific evidence to prove that you will actually become immune to the disease the vaccine is supposed to immunize against. When you inject the foreign substances into your body, there is a different immune reaction than if you'd touched the disease-causing germ and then rubbed your nose or eye. The way it enters your body DOES make a difference. I wouldn't be so against current vaccines, if they were made clean, though. Calcium could be used in place of Aluminum in the adjuvants, but it takes more calcium for the same effect --- thus raising the manufacturer's costs. It has been used before (and was proven to be handled much better by the body), but it was replaced when Aluminum proved to be more reactive and cost efficient. Ever seen a multi-vitamin with a RDA for Aluminum?

DraxOr: we are going to have to agree to disagree, as usual. Manufacturers back those studies monetarily. Everyone seems to have their own agenda - and it can usually be traced back to profit margins. I'll tell you once AGAIN that I would not be against vaccines if they were made clean - but that would mean less profit for Merck and the others, so I won't hold my breath. Aluminum has been described as "a protoplasmic poison and a pernicious and persistent neurotoxin." Aluminum was never meant to be consumed or absorbed by the human body, so why would it be okay to inject it directly into our babies? That just seems like common sense.

http://www.whale.to/a/alum.html information from one source on aluminum toxicity - but find your own sources on how much aluminum is healthy

"The MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on aluminum confirms that aluminum is a poison that accumulates in the brain and tissues of the body. The MSDS on aluminum states the following under Ingestion: "Chronic ingestion of aluminum may cause Aluminum related Bone Disease or aluminum-induced Osteomalacia with fracturing Osteodystrophy, microcytic anemia, weakness, fatigue, visual and auditory hallucinations, memory loss, speech and language impairment (dysarthria, stuttering, stammering, anomia, hypofluency, aphasia, and, eventually, mutism), epileptic seizures (focal or grand mal), motor disturbances (tremors, myoclonic jerks, ataxia, convulsions, asterixis, motor apraxia, muscle fatigue), dementia (personality changes, altered mood, depression, diminished alertness, lethargy, ‘clouding of the sensorium’, intellectual deterioration, obtundation, coma), and altered EEG.
In simple terms, the most notable symptoms of aluminum poisoning are diminishing intellectual function, forgetfulness, inability to concentrate and, in extreme cases, full blown dementia and Alzheimers. Aluminum toxicity also causes bone softening and bone mass loss, kidney and other soft tissue damage and, in large enough doses, can cause cardiac arrest."

The average birth weight for a baby is 7.4 lbs. (3.4 kg.) They receive soon after birth a hepatitis B vaccine that, if it happens to be Recombivax Hepatitis B from Merck, contains 500 mcg. of aluminum or 147 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight. If the Energix vaccine from GlaxoSmithKline is administered, the pediatric dose is 250 mcg. of aluminum as aluminum hydroxide totaling 73.5 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight.

The amount of time for these doses of aluminum to be eliminated by an infant’s immature kidneys is unknown, as is the time it takes for aluminum to transfer from muscular tissue to the bloodstream and, ultimately, into the brain. Meanwhile, the infant is continually dosed with aluminum through infant formula, and even in breastmilk but to a lesser degree.

The average baby visiting their pediatrician for the two-month, well-baby checkup weighs 9.25 lbs. (4.2 kg.) and could receive as much as 1475 mcg. of injected aluminum within 30 min. or 351 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight. The breakdown of vaccines the pediatrician is supposed to administer follows: Hep B (250 to 500 mcg Al); Rotateq® (oral); DTaP (Infanrix® - 625 mcg Al and DAPTACEL® - 330 mcg Al); PCV - pneumococcal vaccine with 8 antigens (125 mcg. Al); Hib – haemophilus influenza type b (225 mcg. Al) and; IPV – inactivated polio vaccine."


Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Neither of our minds have changed since our last set of forum posts. My request is still that people not just blindly take every vaccine and medication a doctor prescribes without asking questions and doing research. Sometimes the side effects are far worse than the original malady.

D Huntress

Narrow minded individuals are not open to concepts outside of their itty bitty mental worlds. 

They spend all their emotional time protecting that world, instead of investigating and researching to validate that what they believe is actually fact and what they think is a lie is really a lie.

It is easier for them to just have faith in what they believe in and attack everything that does not line up with their make world.

They spend all their energy discrediting people who are not exactly like they are.  This way they can feel secure and happy living in their tiny world.

To them all information outside their concepts is absolutely a lie; therefore the messenger that brings that data is absolutely a nut case.  And, must be stopped at all costs from influencing others.









 

P.S.  Skill is everything.

It is truly sad that "facts" can be skewed so easily (for both sides, I'm sure). As for what you said, Livia, they can say the same things aimed at us if we do not look at both sides and try our hardest to figure out the real truths. In a perfect world, these two sides would collaborate to research these issues together -- but there is no money in it.

Autism, Allergies, ADHD, Alhzeimers, Parkinson's, ALS - such a heavy price to pay for us thinking that we could outsmart nature with vaccines, chemical preservatives & bioengineered food. We've believed everything that the FDA has said about food additives being safe and the CDC saying vaccines are safe...We believed because we were taught as children to believe what authority figures told us. Look where it is getting us. 

DraxOr: we are going to have to agree to disagree, as usual.

We don't, actually... That's the beauty of well-done science - it doesn't matter what we believe, because good research doesn't presuppose any particular results, but allows the evidence to speak for itself.  Its only when people with agendas or profit motive get involved that the science is corrupted.  I'm sure that there are bad studies funded by drug companies just as the study you linked earlier is clearly biased in favor of people seeking to discredit vaccinations, but in this case, it appears that there have been quite a few different studies performed by groups of varying motives with the same results.

Aluminum salts have been used this way for nearly 90 years and I guarantee that if there was earth-shattering research to be done establishing hidden dangers that it would have been done by someone by now.

Aluminum has been described as "a protoplasmic poison and a pernicious and persistent neurotoxin." Aluminum was never meant to be consumed or absorbed by the human body, so why would it be okay to inject it directly into our babies? That just seems like common sense.

http://www.whale.to/a/alum.html information from one source on aluminum toxicity - but find your own sources on how much aluminum is healthy

"The MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on aluminum confirms that aluminum is a poison that accumulates in the brain and tissues of the body. The MSDS on aluminum states the following under Ingestion: "Chronic ingestion of aluminum may cause Aluminum related Bone Disease or aluminum-induced Osteomalacia with fracturing Osteodystrophy, microcytic anemia, weakness, fatigue, visual and auditory hallucinations, memory loss, speech and language impairment (dysarthria, stuttering, stammering, anomia, hypofluency, aphasia, and, eventually, mutism), epileptic seizures (focal or grand mal), motor disturbances (tremors, myoclonic jerks, ataxia, convulsions, asterixis, motor apraxia, muscle fatigue), dementia (personality changes, altered mood, depression, diminished alertness, lethargy, ‘clouding of the sensorium’, intellectual deterioration, obtundation, coma), and altered EEG.
In simple terms, the most notable symptoms of aluminum poisoning are diminishing intellectual function, forgetfulness, inability to concentrate and, in extreme cases, full blown dementia and Alzheimers. Aluminum toxicity also causes bone softening and bone mass loss, kidney and other soft tissue damage and, in large enough doses, can cause cardiac arrest."

The average birth weight for a baby is 7.4 lbs. (3.4 kg.) They receive soon after birth a hepatitis B vaccine that, if it happens to be Recombivax Hepatitis B from Merck, contains 500 mcg. of aluminum or 147 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight. If the Energix vaccine from GlaxoSmithKline is administered, the pediatric dose is 250 mcg. of aluminum as aluminum hydroxide totaling 73.5 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight.

The amount of time for these doses of aluminum to be eliminated by an infant’s immature kidneys is unknown, as is the time it takes for aluminum to transfer from muscular tissue to the bloodstream and, ultimately, into the brain. Meanwhile, the infant is continually dosed with aluminum through infant formula, and even in breastmilk but to a lesser degree.

The average baby visiting their pediatrician for the two-month, well-baby checkup weighs 9.25 lbs. (4.2 kg.) and could receive as much as 1475 mcg. of injected aluminum within 30 min. or 351 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight. The breakdown of vaccines the pediatrician is supposed to administer follows: Hep B (250 to 500 mcg Al); Rotateq® (oral); DTaP (Infanrix® - 625 mcg Al and DAPTACEL® - 330 mcg Al); PCV - pneumococcal vaccine with 8 antigens (125 mcg. Al); Hib – haemophilus influenza type b (225 mcg. Al) and; IPV – inactivated polio vaccine."

There are a great many things that are routunely put into our bodies that, in sufficient quantities, would be toxic enough to cause grevious bodily harm.  Drink enough water fast enough and you'll die.  The question here is the toxicity of the levels of aluminum salts found in the individual or cumulative doses of vaccines.  

It seems apparent that there is no demonstrative evidence to suggest that the levels we're talking about have any negative impact.

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Neither of our minds have changed since our last set of forum posts. My request is still that people not just blindly take every vaccine and medication a doctor prescribes without asking questions and doing research. Sometimes the side effects are far worse than the original malady.

Diphtheria, Hepatitis(A&B), Measles, Meningococcal disease, Mumps, Pertussis, Polio, Rotavirus, Smallpox


Please also read:
Once Nearly Eradicated, Vaccine-Preventable Diseases Return to U.S. : http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Health/story?id=2265873&page=1


Seriously, parents whose kids get a potentially life-threatening preventable illnesses because the parents opted not to vaccinate should be held criminally liable.

Quote from: d_huntress on February 08, 2010, 05:07:11 PM

DraxOr: we are going to have to agree to disagree, as usual.

Seriously, parents whose kids get a potentially life-threatening preventable illnesses because the parents opted not to vaccinate should be held criminally liable.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  If they truly believe that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases, then they are doing what they feel in their hearts is the best thing for the child, so charging them in my opinion is extreme.

I think there is a lot more going on in regards to the higher rates of autism, allergies etc than just the immunizations but I have nothing scientific to back it up with   However we live differently today - our food is heavily processed, more women are starting family's later in their lives which according to a study that was recently released there is indications that this does pose a higher risk for the offspring to develop autism.   

In regards to whats bad/good for us - it depends on what type of doctor you talk to.  The cardiologist still tells people with high cholesterol to limit eggs - but that high protien diets are generally ok.  The kidney doctor will tell you to limit protiens as it puts a strain on your kidneys etc.  Whats good for one part of the body may be bad for another!